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Eldar Phantom Titan
Wed, 11/26/2008 - 16:00
Seems like I'm the only person posting here lately. Hello? Is there anybody out there? :)
Let's talk about the Phantom Titan. Once we get this one straightened out, we'll address the Warlock.
With the Warlord coming in at 2500 points and the Forge World Reaver at, what, 1450, I'd like to see the Phantom tip the scales at 2000 points or more. The Reaver really should be 1700 or so, but that's a different discussion.
Using the Bell of Lost Souls data sheet as a reference, there are three aspects of the data sheet to talk about: Weapons, Survivability, and Mobility. Let's do the weapons first:
Weapons:
1) Wing Missile Launcher. The first thing to do is to stop basing it on the Reaper Missile Launcher and to go back to VDR rules. In VDR, two barrels were twin-linked, three were gatling (D3 shots). What would ten barrels work out to be? The Eldar have moved away from random numbers of shots, so I'm thinking of a regular Eldar Missile Launcher, Heavy 5, Twin-linked. This now makes the Wing Missile Launcher a titan-quality weapon, comparable to something that would be on a Warhound, sans the Primary Weapon save.
2) Wing Laser. Traditionally, this weapon has been a Scatter Laser or variant. BoLS made it into a two-shot, S10, AP1, 5" blast. It is nice and powerful, don't get me wrong, but it seems to come out of nowhere. Physically, it is significantly smaller than a Prism Cannon. It's hard to base it off of a Scatter Laser without directly referencing the Vulcan Mega Bolter. In VDR, I would call it a Long Barreled, Mega, Gatling Scatter Laser. Replacing the D3 with a ROF of 2 we get: Range 48", S7 AP5 Heavy 8. Not twin-linked or Primary Weapon. Doesn't feel too bad.
3) Phantom Pulsar. Well, the BoLS one is literally the Laser Blaster from the Warlord Titan. We all agree that the Laser Blaster is very powerful, sure, but I think the guns should be different. Maybe I'm silly that way. I propose this: R:120", S:D, AP:2, Ordinance 2, 7" Blast, Primary Weapon. Halfway between a Las Blaster and a Volcano Cannon.
4) Heat Lance. How do you compare a Melta weapon to a frickin' Destroyer weapon? How do you make it more dangerous? The Melta Cannon on the Warlord doesn't do it. If all things are equal, a Volcano Cannon beats a Melta Cannon in every single circumstance. (Something I tried to explain to the designers, but to no avail.) Honestly, I like what BoLS proposed. When rolling for damage on any table, you add +1 for Destroyer, +1 for AP1, and an additional +2 for the Heat Lance rule. Adding in that you roll 2D6 and pick the highest, there is only 1-in-18 chance that you don't roll a Chain Reaction. Freakin' nasty.
5) Distortion Cannon. I'd like to add in the D3 hits rule from the Vortex Grenade, possibly only for models under the center hole.
6) Sonic Lance. The mechanism is OK, but the total coverage is not. I'd increase the ROF to 3 or 4, and insist that each template touch the previous one. It makes for a fun "garden hose" effect on the table.
Time to take off. I'll re-visit this thread about the Movement and Survivability aspects. Cheers!
Matt
Wed, 11/26/2008 - 19:18
#2
The super-heavy damage table doesn't list a plus one modifier for AP 1 weapons.
Has that been faq'ed somewhere?
Wed, 11/26/2008 - 20:17
#3
Quote:
The super-heavy damage table doesn't list a plus one modifier for AP 1 weapons.
Has that been faq'ed somewhere?
No, it's in the basic rulebook's vehicle damage area. There's a paragraph in the basic book about how all other non-mentioned modifiers apply, but there's not one in the Apocalypse book. We've always played that the AP- and AP1 modifiers introduced in v5 worked on the Super Heavy Damage Table, but I guess arguments can be made to the contrary. It is completely clear that the Destroyer modifier applies to the standard damage table, though. I've assumed that the extra paragraph would have been put in the Apocalypse book had v5 existed at the time.
This is a good question, though. I'll ask about it.
I agree that +4 to the damage table is brutal, especially with the 2D6 pick-highest roll. Removing the extra +2 on the second roll seems reasonable.
Matt
Thu, 11/27/2008 - 01:38
#4
"especially with the 2D6 pick-highest roll." - I've missed that - where is it stated? (It would mean a 1 in 36 chance of not causing a chain reaction... both dice have to come up a 1... the only place I know of that is for ordnance penetration, which a D weapon really doesn't use...)
Thu, 11/27/2008 - 15:28
#5
Quote:
"especially with the 2D6 pick-highest roll." - I've missed that - where is it stated?
Nope, you're right. Mixed up my rules again.
Matt
Sun, 11/30/2008 - 20:22
#6
Lost another long post. I'm really starting to love this new forum software. I'll now have to be brief...
I think we can solve the Phantom Titan's survivability issues by always allowing it to move, at least a little bit, thereby keeping its 4+ save.
Now, before tearing into me, look at the BoLS data sheet again. The Phantom has AV12 on the front and sides with AV11 on the back! There are a LOT of S6 and S7 weapons out there that cannot hurt a Warhound or Warlord on the front or side (S7 can glance AV13 on the back). How do we balance that? This is the same thing that people forget about when complaining that the Falcon is as tough as a Land Raider. How many armies don't have at least a S6 weapon? I know a lot of armies that don't have higher than S8. Yes, once Void Shields are gone they rarely come back up again, but they are still several shots that will never get though. You can inflict real damage on a Phantom with the very first shot. Open that up to include Plasma Pistols, and the possibility of damage becomes much higher.
So, I propose that the Spirit Stone on a Phantom class titan allows the titan to ignore all Driver Stunned results. If the titan is immobilized, it should allow the titan to move up to D6" in the movement phase.
Another option is to have it roll 1D6 per remaining structure point, and let it move 1" for every 6 result.
Thoughts?
Matt
I propose
Sun, 11/30/2008 - 23:22
#7
Odds are that by the time the Phantom has suffered two drive damaged results and is actually immobilized, it will probably have already taken 6 structure points damage, and thus it is unlikely that it will be able to muster enough dice to get it to move even an inch by that method, with end result of no save.
Okay, let me throw out a suggestion. Spirit stones allow the vehicle to always move 6" - similar to the old Machine Spirit on the Land Raider (the new LR spirit is too young to drive, but old enough to shoot wherever it wants apparently…), and allows a 4+ sv versus Driver stunned. But if the Phantom only moves 6” (via spirit stones) then 5+ save, and if it suffers the second drive damaged and is thus immobilized, or has to stop for some other reason, a 6+ save? This gives a graduated damage curve unlike the current one of all or nothing.
Or this – the current Eldar codex spirit stones downgrade a ‘crew stunned’ to a ‘crew shaken’. So the Phantom’s ‘driver stunned’ is down graded to ‘gun crew shaken’ (and the primary weapons get their 4+ save). If all gun crews are already shaken, the result is ignored. Then again, this doesn't address the problem of 2 drive damaged results.
Mon, 12/01/2008 - 13:15
#8
Quote:
Or this – the current Eldar codex spirit stones downgrade a ‘crew stunned’ to a ‘crew shaken’. So the Phantom’s ‘driver stunned’ is down graded to ‘gun crew shaken’ (and the primary weapons get their 4+ save). If all gun crews are already shaken, the result is ignored. Then again, this doesn't address the problem of 2 drive damaged results.
That works for me, and is quite simple. Maybe it is enough.
Matt
Mon, 12/01/2008 - 16:06
#9
A few thoughts.
I think the wing launchers look fine.
Should the laser by ROF 6 instead of 8? This is the old max for a scatter laser and with AP 7 this thing is quite dangerous to light tanks and monstrous creatures.
No problem with the pulsar.
I like the +2 being only the first turn. One possibility is to also do something like the conversion beamer where the "+" amount depends on the distance it fires (except reversed). That makes it +1 at its maximum distance (destroyer), +2 at half distance (melta +destroyer) and +3 at 1/4 distance (special heat lance + melta + destroyer). This would make it very dangerous at very short range and more like a special close combat weapon.
I like the idea of downgrading a driver stunned to a gun crew stunned. Makes a lot of sense that when your armor depends on movement you would sacrifice shooting to keep moving. Allows it to keep the save, but also means that even relatively low rolls can knock its weapons out relatively easily. It will work better as a hit and run type vehicle in this respect because it can run away if it takes hits, recover, and then charge back in using its speed to its advantage. At the same time, if it gets too stuck in, it will get pounded because it won't be shooting back.
One possibility is to have this ignored in CC and have it take the hit. Otherwise its unlikely a phantom in CC will make any sense because it will keep loosing its CCW and normally this result means nothing in CC.
Mon, 12/01/2008 - 18:35
#10
Quote:
Should the laser by ROF 6 instead of 8? This is the old max for a scatter laser and with AP 7 this thing is quite dangerous to light tanks and monstrous creatures.
I was working to get it to be on the level with something a Warhound would have, but can be talked down. The minimal AP5 and the lack of a Primary Weapon makes it very much less than anything on any titan, in my opinion.
I can easily see changing the bonus to the Damage Table roll based on the range. I just don't want it to be too complicated.
We can allow the Spirit Stones to give the player the option of taking the Driver Stunned result or not.
Titans never make sense in close combat, unless you are the one attacking the titan!
What about the D3 damage for the distortion cannon? Is that cool?
Looks like Merlin is up to his old tricks again! This is very nice, but I'm not sure I paid that much for my last Phantom titan!
Matt
Mon, 12/01/2008 - 18:55
#11
D3 is fine.
I'm not sure that the laser is really a main titan weapon (e.g. a warhound weapon), I guess I see the phantom as having only two really major titan weapons (warlord arm equivilent), and then having two smaller systems that are more secondary than those on the warlord. Sort of makes it a warlord light, but then it gets speed to compensate.
With CC: the CCW is a pretty standard model piece and titans really can rip each other up. The problem is that most titans will get pounded trying to get into CC with another titan which makes it basically a useless strategy. They have become fire platforms instead of big combat robots.
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 16:30
#12
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 17:46
#13
I find that I'm still going back and forth on the Distortion Cannon. Should the 'Vortex' effect be more than just the center hole? It might be too tough if we do that, or maybe it'd be OK since the range is so short.
I went with the simplest versions of the Heat Lance and Spirit Stone rules. It is still out for interpretation as to whether AP1 gets the additional +1 on the Super Heavy Damage Table.
Matt
Wed, 01/27/2010 - 09:02
#14
i have used your rules at the last apocalypse battle we played at my house. and the phantom as it is now is really cool.
the 1900 version did nothing for me, but with the heavy 4 sonic lance and beefed up missile pod, the titan is finally a fearsome thing on the battlefield.
things i found for improvement or change
Change the heavy 4 to heavy d3+1.. this way you always have 2 shots with a possibillity for 3 or 4.
Always 4 templates is really scary.
I know eldar does not have that much "random" shot weapons because well, they are an advanced race, but still..
With 4 templates I disintegrated an entire endless horde of 200 gaunts.. could u imagine if I was playing against marines... they would be disintegrated to.. so heavy d3+1 would be ok in my opinion
the missile launcher is ok now. the krak and plasma are really effective against light tanks or gargantuan creatures. or a marine if there are no other targets.
the scatter laser is quite useless now.. heavy 6 str 7 is not all that.. would be nice if that could change a bit to heavy 8 or str 8 or a higher ap ( ap 3 to be precise ). It is a titan weapon after all and not a souped up warwalker scatter laser.
I will use it as a heavy 8 str 8 ap 5 weapon from now on. with a max range of 48" i see this as a type of defensive weapon that kills things that come to close. so with the minimum range of 18"and max range of 48" you will get a 20" ring around your titan where this weapons is usefull.
Then again.. ill probably try out the max gattling abillity to.. like making it str 6 but heavy 4d6 ap 6 to realy make it a "hail of shots"type of weapon. again with the max range of 48"
the phantom Distortion cannon is pretty much the same as the cobra. the chance of the hole hitting somethng is small unless you chug it on another superheavy ( wich you would not do because these weapons are made to kill lots of tanks/infantry..) i would like to see the vortex grenade range increased to 3".. but lose the guess/barrage rule
you could see it as if the titan shoots a vortex grenade into the ground and the force of the hit generates a 7"ring around it what is hit with str d. This makes the weapon different than the cobra's Distortion cannon. The option for indirect barrage fire is gone, but gaining 2.5"of vortex power.
this would make the phantom D-cannon more titanny(is that a word:-p )
The reason why id like to lose the Guess rule is because i rellly do nogt see a titan lob a ball of power in the air as if it is an artillery piec. it is frikking huge so it wil point down his gun and fire straigt at you.. no guessing is needed.. unless you decide that the shot is so inaccurate you really must scatter 2d6.. but i think the titan powers would nullify this.. the cobra is a skimmer with a huge cannon, so when fired the cannon would make the skimmer shake for a bit, thus making the 2d6 scatter rule logic, A phantom is a steady walking powerhouse and therefore has no backfire problems.
these are the only weapons i used the last battle ( you can only have 2 primary weapons)
but this is what I think.. overall pretty cool, but with a little tweaking here and there, the 2000 points for 2 primary weapons ( just like a warhound, wich cost like 1/3 th of it :-p ) comes more to its right. downgrading the sonic lance a bit because hvy 4 is HARD..
conclusion.. 1 weapon just right ( the missile launcher) 1 weapon downgraded(the sonic lance) and 2 weapons changed a little to more emphasise their roles.. )
Grt
Rag-D
Wed, 01/27/2010 - 13:37
#15
Hey, Rag-D. Thanks for the feedback.
I've always thought the role of the distortion cannon is as a titan killer; to hit one tough thing really really hard. That's why it ignores shields. I may be off base though. I like the barrage rule because we often use a lot of large pieces of terrain.
We've found the scatter laser to be nice against flyers and other light vehicles, plus as an extra couple of shots at a Reaver's Void Shields. Upping both the strength and the rate of fire might make it too good against those targets. I'll think on it.
Yeah, maybe the Sonic Lance is too tough, but did it do a lot more than the Phantom Pulsar would have? You still have to roll to wound for the Sonic Lance and the Pulsar just allows you to take the models off of the table. I'll weigh the numbers.
Thanks again for the feedback!
Matt
Wed, 01/27/2010 - 17:23
#16
Interesting thoughts. I'm with Matt on the scatter laser. Hvy 8 str 8 is really good against monstrous and tanks (compare against a gatling blaster against tanks/monstrous which is effectively Hvy 5 str 8 and a much bigger gun) while not granting much against the horde compared to the old stats (still wounds on a 2+ and only has two more shots), which is what I see as this weapons purpose. At the proposed stats its quite a bit more potent than a mega bolter. I can see the RoF 8, but anything above Str 7 can take out most tanks (and even Str. 7 can be pretty potent). The weakness of the mega bolter is that it has little chance against most tanks (50% glance at best and most are imposible) and can struggle with monstrous critters (often needing a 5 or 6 to wound for the real beasties). It also lacks range. However, it just chews up basic infantry that get to close (making it a great weapon, along with the inferno, for dealing with being assaulted).
I like the idea of the increased vortex effect for the D-cannon. The D-cannon has just never made sense stats wise. As a titan hunter, its blast is too big and its range is too small. I suppose you can justify the range because of its speed, but still....
The sonic lance v. pulsar may be the issue that a pulsar is limited to a maximum of two hits with the same "to hit" odds as a sonic lance which can get 4 on a good roll. In effect, the pulsar will hit twice about as consistently as a sonic lance does, but the sonic lance will average more total hits over time. This may also be an issue where the reduction in D strength template size (which I think everyone except Forgeworld thinks is a good idea) actually improves the sonic lance a little too much.
Wed, 01/27/2010 - 19:26
#17
about the sonic lance.. wounding on a 2+ does not matter. you have a huge template and the abillity to engulf an entire line of models. this is why the hvy 4 is a bit overkill..
about the scatter laser wing.. it is a titan weapon. usually you can make an estimate of 250 points per primary weapon on a reaver and the rest for structure poiints and structure points
making it 750 points.. and 500 points for the structure
when looking at the titan with 2 more structure points, and 1 less primary weapon.. i think the scatter laser wing can be buffed a bit... hence the str 8.. you can still only fire at 1 target and has crap armor penetration. so even with only 4+ armor you can get your saves, making it less potent than the missile launcher.
missile launcher 5 attacks with rerolls.. str 8 and ap 3.. this averages in 4 hits.. and 3.75 kills.
scatte rlaser with 8 hshots, no reroll, averages in 6 hits, but with the low ap you only do 1.75 wounds... against a vehicle it would be more effective.. but do you really want to fire a titan weapon against only 1 vehicle... use the sonic lance or distortion cannon for that and take along his friends that are close to it :-p..
ok.. against other titans this weapon is cool.. but hey.. it is a titan of 2000 points!! so every weapon should be feared.
the scatter laser now is just a weapon that is there.. but has no real uses. for it sucks against tanks with armor 11 or higher.. and is useless against infantry...
at least str 8 gives it the chance of instakilling that irritating marine commander..
Wed, 01/27/2010 - 23:07
#18
"missile launcher 5 attacks with rerolls.. str 8 and ap 3.. this averages in 4 hits.. and 3.75 kills.
scatte rlaser with 8 hshots, no reroll, averages in 6 hits, but with the low ap you only do 1.75 wounds... against a vehicle it would be more effective.. but do you really want to fire a titan weapon against only 1 vehicle... use the sonic lance or distortion cannon for that and take along his friends that are close to it :-p.."
Assuming you hit something with Armor 3 or 4 (which is basically marines/necrons and some nids)...
Against Armor 5, 6 or 2, a cover or an invulnerable save - The scatter laser does more kills because you have increased hits and everything else is the same. Most basic infantry is armor 5 or 6.
Compare the mega bolter which outperforms the fmissile at all but Armor 3, but needs 6 to take out even basic tanks, can't touch the bigger ones, and has trouble wounding monstrous. All of which the missile launcher excels at.
My concern is the Armor 2/invulnerable situation being an improvement. The armor 5/6 is logical for a multi shot weapon (and fits the vulcan and other similar weapons). But combined with the extra strength, this can be potent against monstrous critters (whcih will often have 2+ or 3+ saves and often have invulnerable saves) and most tanks.
What I see it ending up as is a gun that outperforms both items against tanks/monstrous, and then also outperforms the missile launcher against bulk infantry (except marines).
Thu, 01/28/2010 - 14:38
#19
again with the mega bolter.. that is a warhound weapon. and only an idiot would put it on a reaver.. and i am comparing the phantom with the reaver. the reason why is because this is the biggest/strongest forgeworld titan currently on the market.
it has 3 primary weapons and no secondary.. this is the reason why the titan laser can be buffed.
reaver = 1250
phantom at its current state is 2000... take away 2x 250 points for the primary weapons leaves you with 1500 points.. Take away the 500 for the reaver basic "core" body and you are left with 1000 Points for only 2 extra structure points, lower armor and 2 small secondary weapons..
Yes.. the phantom weapons are more powerfull... so even if we boost these up to 350 points each. we are still 800 points short..
that is why i say.. boost the scatter laser.. it is a TITAN weapon.. and a BIG MF titan to boost.
it is not a primary weapon. so if a weapon is damaged or destroyed.. the opponent can always opt to destroy/prevent it from firing a turn, without any saves..
hvy 8 str 8 ap 5 is not all that bad for a phantom... it has less range than the missiles too.. i see the laser as a rapid fire heavy beam cannon, and the missile launcher an armor piercing sheller. one with higher rate of fire but less armor penetration, and the other with less shots, but more chances to hit and higher armor penetration.
then again...this is just my point of view. i will still use the current 2000 point datasheet since i do not wish to create my own.. but still.. it would be good if everything has extra reviews.
i believe u think that since it is a lowly secondary weapon, it should be less powerfull than other weapons.. i am all for that.. but if you look at it.. you could make these weapons primary weapons, without the saves... or do you agree that the +2 structure points are worth 800 points?
because if that is so id rather have a 6 structurepoints phantom at a cost of 1250 points than a 8 structure points variant for 2000..
btw.. while looking at the 2 titans i removed the "titan holo fields" and "void shields" out of the loop, since i found that these are about evenly matched.
so what if a phantom can take out a warhound in 1 turn.. it costs 3 times as much :-p...
the previous apocalypse battle pointed out that the sonic lance was a carpet bomber :-p.. wich would annihilate everything it touches.. scoring 30 hits on a unit consisting of 25 gaunts means that the unit is pretty much dead.
The missile launcher killed a gargantuan with eaze because of the ap 3 and he had no coversaves.. so this one is hard then also
but when looking at the heavy 6 str 7 laser.. it was useless..
all it did was shake up a rhino and annoy a marine. the same gargantuan was not even wounded by the thing..
hope to see some new ideas and feedback about the phantom since i am very interesed in how far we can tweak this baby..
Just for the record.. i find the 2000 point versoin as it is now, way better than the original 1900 version. Mainly because the beefed up primary weapons and missile launcher makes it perform much better. and makes it a Scary model, instead of a 1900 point pointsink that everyone ignores for the 3-4 turns an apocalypse battle last(in our group :-p ), OR im my case.. kills every time on turn 1 with 24 firedragons...
NOTE... Firedragons are the ultimate Titan killers.. load 15 of these in transports and launch them at a titan.. it will 99.75% of the time annihilate that titan in 1 turn :-p...
ahh.. had nothing to do with this topic, but wanted to say it anyway..
and here a picture of the titan :-p
Thu, 01/28/2010 - 16:49
#20
I couldn't agree more about the Fire Dragons. In our last little battle I took just a single Wave Serpent full and they destroyed a Warhound in a single round. The nuclear explosion wasn't what I planned for, but since I Flank Marched into the enemy deployment zone it worked out anyway.
Wraithguard also to wonders against titans. I like to drop 20 in my Vampire and deploy them at the foot of a Reaver. Of course, two or three Wraithlords will paste a Reaver in close combat, but the trick is getting them there.
Back onto the Phantom...
I consider the Phantom to be in between the Warlord and the Reaver. In my mind, the arm weapons should be at least as tough as the arm weapons on a Warlord. I think we're about there. I liked the Heavy 4 on the Sonic Lance since that makes it a solid 4x better than the Revenant's weapon, but Heavy 3 is still reasonable.
The trick is that the arm weapons are all clearly better than the Reaver's weapons. At least they should be.
The wing weapons are tough to balance. A good target is to make them roughly equivalent to the non-Destroyer Warhound weapons which are on the carapace on both the Warlord and the Reaver. The wing missile launcher is nice as it is currently defined since it hits hard but only against single targets. Maybe the scatter laser needs a further bump. I can see bumping it to Heavy 8 without too much fuss. S8 and Heavy 8 might be too much.
Gotta get back to work. More to come.
Nice titan!
Matt
Thu, 01/28/2010 - 18:24
#21
Personally, I think the arm weapons on those datasheets outclass any other titan weapon, so I wouldn't be all that worried about what the wings do.
Unless playing on a very large battlefield, I think I'd take 2 of those weapons over two warlord arm weapons and one carapace any day.
The sonic lance is like a fire hose for anything not mounted in a vehicle within 5 feet.
The Pulsar outranges laser blasters and has larger templates (admittedly with 1 less shot)
The D-Cannon will kill superheavies and anything standing next to them out to 4 feet
The Heat Lance auto-penetrates and adds 3 to the damage table to everything under a 7" template up to 6 feet
The wing weapons are just gravy. (Albeit short-ranged gravy) There's enough high strength shots between them to knock down 2 to 4 imperial titan shields.
Compared to this, the reaver can max out at 8 5" strength D templates. The only real advantages are greater range and that it's actually 8 hits that can knock through shields and pound a target multiple times.
In terms of area covered the phantom wins with the sonic lance.
The calculation on how many 5" strength templates would be equivalent to 1 7" template with an extra +2 on the damage table isn't really possible. I think I'd always rather have the heat lance. I'm betting it would make folks spread those baneblade herds out and it would eat any regular tank formation in one shot.
If you're playing on a "table" and not a "floor", then I think this Phantom outclasses a Reaver by 500 points. It can do most of what a Reaver can do, and plenty a reaver can't.
In a big game though, the phantom is going to be wading through apocalyptic barrages all day long and isn't ever going to get to use those toys.
My vision of what Eldar titans should be is fast, precise, and hard to corner. This datasheet makes them slow, short-ranged, area effect weapons.
My personal opinion is that the "Run" moves should be much longer. It doesn't change the dynamic in a "table top" game of apocalypse (because there's no where to go), but in a really big game it makes it possible for the phantom to duck away and hide or close in to targets fast.
I also think that the holo-fields should improve if the titan moves this way. If it wants to dance around and not shoot, make it near-invulnerable. Then it would be believable that they weren't pounded to dust by long range volcano cannons and apocalyptic barrages before they got close enough to use their superweapons.
When compared to a Revenant Titan at 800 points, I'd definitely say that the phantom is worth 2000. The greater ranges make up for not having jump jets, the weapons outclass what 2 revenants could do, and the extra structure and immunity to driver stunned, and increased power of the wing weapons easily rounds out the other 400 points.
Sat, 01/30/2010 - 16:20
#22
New datasheet here. Let me know what you think.
I really dig your army scheme. I'm surprised with your high standards that you play the Phantom non-WYSIWYG. I was expecting to see a real sonic lance (seen them on eBay but never painted).
There is some precedence in Harlequins taking and using Imperial Tanks, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's Apocalypse and you can bring Abaddon in your Eldar army if you want.
Thank you again for all of the great feedback. Check out the data sheet page in my local group and let me know what you think of them. (Probably should start a new topic or take it off-list.)
Cheers!
Matt
Sat, 01/30/2010 - 23:44
#23
hehe we have the sonic lance and d-cannon.. however they are not painted yet :-p..
so i do not place them ( because it looks silly on the pictures.. )
most peapole dont mind to play it like this, and if they do.. well then ill just use the unpainted weapons...
Thu, 05/13/2010 - 15:46
#24
just checked your other page with datasheets
i like that dragon grav tank.. but i have absolutely no idea of how to picture it
is it a cobra/scorpion size grav tank, or something bigger? it has 2 extra turrets wich makes me think about the sponsons of a baneblade..
and the continous beam with 4 blasts... i think it is fairly weak. For 1500 points you would expect something with a little more punch.
for 1200 points you would have 2 cobra's with 2 10" templates
any pictures or sketches with ideas of the looks? ?
Thu, 05/13/2010 - 19:35
#25
Pictures right here: http://www.siegeworld.com/?q=node/402
In our games we've reduced the sizes of the D-weapon templates down to the next smaller sizes, so the Star Dragon's 5" CB templates are bigger than those from the Scorpion. Whether it is tougher than two Cobras (with 7" templates) is debatable. The CB can be 'walked' to more than one target with an amount of luck. I'd be happy to talk about it some more. More discussion about this tank should probably go back on the above thread.
I'm hoping to make a second one within the next few months.
Matt
I'm still here.
I agree with just about all the proposed weapons, except the heat Lance, which is over the top, even in Apocalypse - once you actually hit, you are pretty sure that you will destroy the target Titan, no matter the structure points. I would like the +2 Heat Lance Rule to only apply to the first damage roll, then it drops to merely 50% chance of cascading structure points. Gives a Warlord some chance to survive a hit. Will blow through a Warhound or Reaver (which FW costs at 1,250pts... right, pull the other leg.) or Stompa with fair regularity.